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Wednesday, January 24, 2007

Internet: Eradicating The Root Not Only The Symptoms

We all know that using the Internet has its risks. More and more stories are surfacing of people, both children and adults, who started their downfall from innocent surfing, chatting, or the like.

Understandably, many in the community feel the need to restrict its use and institute acceptable safeguards for people to follow.

In Lakewood, N.J. many schools demand that parents disclose if they have Internet access, or even just email, in their home. Then the parent must meet with one of a few designated Rabbonim to explain the necessity of having Internet in the home. The parent must then fill out a form promising to keep the computer in a separate locked room, and only then is the child allowed to remain the school.

Although I agree in principle for the need to institute guidelines, I still feel that whenever faced with a problem we should try to eradicate the root of the problem and not focus only on the symptom.

The fact that people use the Internet to view inappropriate material or develop inappropriate relationships is only the symptom of a problem and not the root of it. The root of the problem is that our community is increasingly getting caught up with externals, and there is not enough focus on internals. Nowadays, successful Chinuch is measured in terms of material covered, hours of learning, homework, tests, reports, etc. Good old-fashioned Yiras Shamaim is not high on the agenda.

As long as this continues we will be producing young men and women who are knowledgeable & educated, but whose Fear of Heaven and true sincerity leave much to be desired. On the surface all seems fine and dandy, but if all the horror stories about the Internet are true, “something is rotten in the State of Denmark”.

What will be in a few short years when all big cities and possibly smaller towns too, will be huge WiFi hotspots? Already there are cities that are like this. Having one’s computer in a locked room won’t stop anyone from accessing the Internet through Palms, PDAs, and cellphones. It will all be so easy and accessible, and one shudders to think of the consequences.

The root of the problem appears to be that since our community has been largely successful in insulating itself from the outside world through its own schools, newspapers, entertainment, and what not, influence from the outside world is considered a thing of the past. Hence, the stress of our educational system on reaching new heights in learning and knowledge, and internalizing true Fear of Hashem is something taken for granted.

It’s high time that we wake up and realize that with the advent of modern technology we are no longer insulated, no matter where we live. We must return to the days when nothing was taken for granted, and much emphasis must be placed on ensuring that our children have properly internalized their Yiddishkeit. Then and only then can we hope and pray that our children do not fall prey to the glitz and glamour of the outside world. By focusing on the root of the issue, less focus will be necessary on its symptoms.

Obviously, we must always battle the symptoms too. But fighting the symptoms only could lead to disaster sooner or later. Let’s lift our heads out of the sand and get back to basics.

We will all be better off that way.

58 Comments:

berel said...

Well DUH.... And what PEACE ON EARTH... Goodwill to all people regardless of race creed and colr while were at it...

mj said...

i agree one hundred percent
we should be teaching self control instead of just forcing people into self control. what is it worth if you force someone to control himself that is passing a nisayon because that is not a nisayon.
when a nisayon does come the person never worked on self control so it is much harder to pass all we know of is outside controls and no internal self control

socialworker/frustrated mom said...

Bravo great post and I totally agree with your point. Since the internal focus is not changing in our society the only thing schools can do and will do is to try to control the external. Since they can't really control anything else, sad.

steve said...

Great post IFT!! If a person has a strong yetzer hara for znus, then he will do whatever is necessary to satisfy his taavos. This was true even before the internet existed. The internet does not make a person sin, it only makes it more accessible. By removing the internet from the home, this person will now go to cafes or libraries to access the filth he desires.

I compare the internet to an automobile. Today we all consider the automobile a necessity. Nevertheless, it is a dangerous machine that should not be driven by a child or by an irresponsible adult. The same is true for the internet. It is an absolute necessity in today's society, don't let anyone convince you otherwise. However, one would be irresponsible if he gave his kids unfettered access to it. Likewise, if an adult knows that he cannot control his urges, he should not put himself in this nisayon on a regular basis. This type of person will be nichshal regardless, but at least he shouldn't put himself in this predicament daily. For these types of people, we should not make blanket issurim that affect responsible users as well.

Anonymous said...

Yes, when I first heard about the internet ban for the children's sake I laughed. Who was banning it for the adults? What can I really say to this when I hear stories that highly Orthodox men have porn on their computers or TVs which are housed in the basement or back room of their businesses? It truly is an internal self control issue.

Most importantly though, it's a command to not desire your neighbor's wife, nor commit adultery, for even if you lust after another woman you are essentially committing adultery. It's sinful. Call it what it is.

I feel pity for the Orthodox community that despite your best efforts to remain insulated, you are affected by the world in which you live. Yet also, I can't help but think how hypocritical the community is to put on the appearance of such self righteousness that you obey the innocuous rule not to drive on the Sabbath, or rip toilet paper.

Like the priests in the Catholic church, your rabbis are dealing with sexual misconduct with children. If this is an issue of sin, how do you address this root, when even the most venerated positions of either religion are affected? How can you blame it on technology when many of these offenses were committed before the widespread popularity of the internet? The sin is as old as man himself, and as such, they should stop blaming the internet and focus on the heart.

SBG

mj said...

SBG
as a religious jew I take offense with your statements. the issue of sexual abuse is not a pervasive widespread issue and yet you seem to paint all religious jews with same broad brush of putting up an appearance of self righteousness. most of the community and rabbis are not sexual predators and are good people and many are holy people.
additionally i find it offensive to put down and demean any of our laws if you do not understand or see the significance of all the jewish laws thats fine but dont put down others or their beliefs

Anonymous said...

Yet also, I can't help but think how hypocritical the community is to put on the appearance of such self righteousness that you obey the innocuous rule not to drive on the Sabbath, or rip toilet paper.

Don't paint the whole community with one broad brush.

Y.Y. said...

its obvious that SBG isnt jewish

hasid_letz said...

"The root of the problem is that our community is increasingly getting caught up with externals, and there is not enough focus on internals."

And for the definition of internals:

"Good old-fashioned Yiras Shamaim is not high on the agenda."

I don't know what you mean by Good old-fashioned Yiras Shamaim, but my children are getting a pretty good dose of that at school. Our problems are far more complicated than this simplistic statement implies.

X koifnik said...

Hasid_Letz

1) Your name doesn't fit your intellect. You seem highly intelligent. What does this name mean to you?

2) Your kids are not getting a pretty good dose of Good old-fashioned Yiras Shamaim at school. What they are getting is a good dose of how to be perceived "normal". How not to be different, regardless how corrupt or bankrupt the practices are. How to ridicule people who are different regardless how well meaning they are.

x koifnik said...

A good dose of Good old-fashioned Yiras Shamaim is:

How to be proud to be different. How to be proud to do the right thing for Hashem. Regardless how many people disagree, or disrespect it.

Hesh said...

Great Post- anoter thing you may have left out other then externals is the fact that many of the roots of these problems are created by the stringencies that the Charedi community forces onto its members alineating those few who chose to be frum and charedi yet have some sort of secular reach to the outside world.

By banning the internet they are just creating one more beef- and the rebelous nature of many members may flair up again.

When will the Rabbis decide that making everything assur is obviously not having the desired effect.

Anonymous said...

www.k9webprotection.com

Goy said...

"emphasis must be placed on ensuring that our children have properly internalized their Yiddishkeit."

This quote says it all IFT!! Great Blog.

GoyGirl said...

sorry.. (re: my comment above). I meant to finish my identity and hit the enter button too soon.

Independent Frum Thinker said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Independent Frum Thinker said...

Berel –
I’m not sure what you mean to say.

Mj –
We must work on both ends. Not to allow ourselves into a Nisayon situation, but also to fortify ourselves so that when faced with a Nisayon we can overcome it.

SW/FM –
Sad, but if we can raise awareness perhaps we can make a difference.

Steve –
Great comment. I especially like the analogy to an automobile.

SBG –
Thank you for your thoughts. I agree that more emphasis should be put “on the heart”, which I refer to as Fear of God. However, I think you are painting with to broad a brush. Yes, our community has its problems, but to call us hypocritical is going way too far. Most of us sincerely want to do what is right, and even those that occasionally slip understand that they are doing wrong and will come around sooner or later.
As for your statement that driving or ripping toilet paper on the Sabbath is innocuous; I must take strong issue with that. As believing Jews we believe that God knows what is best for us and what is best for the world. If he chose to forbid driving or ripping toilet paper on the Sabbath, (punishable by death according to Biblical law), obviously it is far from innocuous. We do not have to fully understand everything that God decrees. But we trust and believe that there are deep and important reasons for everything.

Hasid_letz –
I beg to disagree. It APPEARS that your children are getting a pretty good dose of it at school, but if when exposed to temptation so many people slip so easily, obviously is not being fully ingrained.

X koifnik –
Agreed.

Hesh –
You are raising an entirely different issue. Perhaps it will be the subject of a future post.
For now let me just ask you, do you truly believe that not creating boundaries is any better? I think it’s a fine line to walk between creating boundaries yet not restricting too much unnecessarily which can lose the effect of the boundary completely.

Anonymous Jan 24, 10:30 –
Thank you.

Goygirl –
Thank you.

Rafi Goldmeier said...

my kids go to one of the most haredi schools in my neighborhood. They get NO yiras shamayim. They learn at an amazing level. They know much more much better than I did at their age. They probably know more about chumash and mishnayos and navi than I even know now. The learning is amazing.

But they get no yiras shamayim.

I recently had an "asifat horim" parent teachers meeting. I heard from all the rebbeim that my various kids (each rebbe about the kid in his class) are great in their behavior (aside form their learning situations) and show respect. They also all mentioned they do not know why or how that is so, because they said it is much more so than the other kids.

I know the reason for the shock is because they do not get it in school. They get it at home because we teach them to be respectful of everybody, even Jews of differing opinions (somethign they for sure do not get at school) and showing respect to people.

Sometimes I think that we are not getting through, because they misbehave so much at home and press our buttons. But hearing sucha report from the rebbe gave me a lot of nachas that it is getting through and even if they misbehave in private, in public they know how to show respect.

And I think that is a major aspect of yiras shamayim. If they know how to act properly and show respect and not be haughty and dominating, it means at least a certain amount of yiras shamayim is getting through.

Pro Respect said...

Rafi Goldmeier,

Your point on respect is probably the CORE sign of Yiras Shamayim. A person can base his/her ethics on what his/her peers “perceive” is ethical. Or you can base it on what you believe Hashem wants regardless how many people do differently.

People, who base their ethics on image & appearance, don’t have much respect for nobody or anything. Their main concern is their self-image. a.k.a. self absorbed.. (I’m not talking about self-esteem, which is internals, I’m referring to self-image which is the façade) Showing respect is free. So somebody, who has a problem showing respect to all well-meaning people, is too preoccupied with self-image, to have Yiras Shamayim. Disrespect & Yiras Shamayim can not go hand in hand, it is a conflict of interest.

Anonymous said...

The torah says 'Lo sikruvo l'galos ervah',not lets just deal with the reasons behind why such averos are done.
I know a learned fellow who definitly was a yorey shmoyim by most standards (yes noone knows the insides but I can attest to his tremendous self sacrifice and sincerety for yiddishkeit)who got hooked on blogs-not even open kefirah blogs but rather the type of blogs that always being melalglag al divrei chacomim(v'hamavin yovin).His emunah and yiras shomayim was so severly shaken by the experiance that says openly he almost lost it.Kal v'chomer the h'mon am.
I don't believe that someone can follow a moishev leitzem blog and nothave his yiras shomayim and yiras chet and chasivus for limud hatorah dikduk in halacha and shemiras haloshoshen shaken.So yes the internet is a cause of the "symptom" everyone refers to.

Notsofrummie said...

I think these rabbis were just jealous that they weren’t able to access those free porn sites. So, they decided to assur it from the whole community, if they cant see their porn no one can. Forget about porn, Its amazing how these rebbeim get caught up on issues like this, it’s as if these frum communities like Lakewood (and soon faltbush and BP) weren’t isolated enough form the outside world, lets close them in even more without having access to the internet or have NYT in the house. We can only allow a one view type paper like Yaated or Hamodea. Just remember your living in the US, your working here (some of you), living here, and paying taxes here (well most of you I hope).

shmaya gestetner said...

great post ift.
i am deeply bothered by the amount of filth that awaits at every corner while surfing the web, it is almost impossible to completely avoid it. however, i believe that our leaders are not dealing with the right side side of the issue. it's sort of like trying to close down a mcdonalds in a non frum neighbourhood because jewish people are eating there.
THE PROBLEM IS (in my semi-humble opinion), our parents and rabbeim are too uncomfortable to give us a proper education on sexuallity and the roll it plays in judaism. nobody can deny that if you plan on coming closer to god in your life, you must learn how to deal with sexual temptation. according to r'nachman m'breslov, it is the main reason why we are in this world!
the lack of attention to this important topic is sad. unfortunately, most rosh yeshivas', rav's and rabbeim, would much rather discuss more lofty topics dealing with toiling in torah(which happens to be a good way of fighting off the yetzer hora) and other topics which don't lower their status. and in the event that any bochur is caught with any sexual misdeed, everyone is in a state of shock; they are not shocked that a human being actually commited a sexual sin, they are shocked that they have to go through the discomfort of discussing it.

love always,
shmaya

p.s. do you love me too ift?

frummie said...

Notsofrummie,

Why in hell would you want to encourage and share your "great life" with so many frum people. Aren't you concerned you will have to compete harder for your chickens, wait in longer lines to enter the clubs.

C'mon tell us the truth, does your wild life really suck? Too much heartbreak? To many hangovers? Getting harder to get high? You look 58 at age 28? Or all the above?



Shmaya,
You have a very strong point. The cause is probably the same. The Roboinim don't have the guts to do the right thing, and are too concerned how it will be perceived.

shmaya gestetner said...

frumie and not so frummie-
this is not the place for cat-fights. learn how to express and debate issues like mature adults.
peace and love,

frumie said...

Shmaya,

I'm sure you mean well, but notsofrumie is ridiculing our way of life. Some may take the bait. So we must warn innocent people, what’s in store for them after they swallow the bait. notsofrumie understands what I'm talking about. Life really sucks on the other side, for the reasons I mentioned.

The problem is, the artificial stress on our side sucks too. Hopefully we will clean our act up on this side, and they will stand in line trying to get back in.

shmaya gestetner said...

frumie,
i hear you and i know she was ridiculing our way of life, and thats not cool. but you don't have to fight back in the same fashion.
you could do better then that.

frummie said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
shmaya gestetner said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Shpitzle Shtrimpkind said...

You write with much heart! Great post!

You should know that the right way is a long and hard way. It seems living life on a floating tube is simpler than ever learning to swim. We're too afraid of drowning to ever test the real waters.

It's unfortunate.

Swimming Instructor said...

Shpitzle Shtrimpkind,

You are so right: "It seems living life on a floating tube is simpler".

But once you learn how to swim, you realize how handicapped you were with a tube.

I agree the right way SEEMS hard, but it is not long, the hard part is letting go the "tube" ("appearance and image" ethics), but once you relax & start "swimming" (rely your ethics on what you believe Hashem wants) in no time you will be as a gracious as a seal.

Not everybody will realize it, but the right people will. It's a matter of time before it reaches critical mass.

Independent Frum Thinker said...

Rafi G –
Very interesting and that is exactly my pint. Knowledge is wonderful, but everyone needs a large dose of sincere Yiras Shamaim.
I’m glad your children are properly absorbing their parents’ lessons.

Pro Respect –
Good point. Thank you.

Anonymous Jan 25, 11:05 –
Obviously one shouldn’t allow himself into situations where he may succumb to temptation. However, if people are falling like flies when exposed to the outside world, it proves that Yiras Shamaim is lacking and much of our Yiddishkeit is external. I never intended to disagree with the Lakewood ban and similar efforts. My point was that if we treat the symptoms ONLY, and not focus ALSO on the root of the issue, all well-meaning efforts are doomed to fail.

Notsofrummie –
Please don’t disparage Rabbis on this blog. This blog is intended for those who seek to improve themselves and our Frum community. Disparaging remarks about Rabbis have no place here. Please continue to visit, but please respect our standards.

Shmaya –
Interesting viewpoint. Thank you for sharing.
P.S. I love all Jews and frankly most people in general. However those who visit my blog and take the time to write insightful comments hold a special place by me.

Frummie –
Leave him be. It’s okay, let him vent. We all need to occasionally.

Shpitzle –
A compliment from a prolific and talented writer is no small thing.
Interesting analogy. However, we all know that swimming, no matter how hard, is what will really take us far. Reaching higher levels will always seem hard, otherwise there would be little reward. But we have to try, and will hopefully succeed.

Swimming Instructor –
Good point.

frummie said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
The_Hypocrite:-):-) said...

Hi !!!excellent post. although a word of caution. Don't feel the need to post here. I know i am doing wrong by sitting here wasting my time on the net. I hope you don't feel all frum and everything because you are writing about issues that are certainly valid. IF you really wanted to make the world a better place you would start with yourself and stop blogging, chatting, emailing , and start learning. If you work for a living than by all means, do your work successfully, pay your bills online etc etc, but dont spend your time on the net even for good things like blogging about the need to improve the Chesronos of the frum community. All your points are valid but Tikun Olam starts with Tikkun Atzmi. Go learn some Mishnayos instead of blogging.

It's All Good Now said...

What you are proposing actually makes the Baal Shem Tov extremely happy because the purpose for his founding of Chassidus was to allow the every day people to serve Hashem out of love in their daily, mundane tasks. Schools and homes need to imbue our youth with feelings of love for Hashem, instead of trying to channel Judaism through fear tactics, the chief of them being guilt.

Economist said...

Now days it is very hard to run a business without internet. In a few years it will be almost impossible.

People without internet will struggle like in 3rd world economies.

"Communication was difficult, forcing Truc to make time-consuming trips to suppliers and buyers"

see this link:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070127/ap_on_hi_te/cell_phone_revolution

Soon we will write, "Communication was difficult forcing Yoily to have very limited suppliers and customers who don't yet insist on using email and automation".

Sara with NO H said...

My 2 cents is this...
If people got their kids' heads out of their asses then maybe they'd wake up and not worry. It's the same issue with molestation. Sheltering your children is a good thing, but only to a point. I speak ONLY from experience.

Independent Frum Thinker said...

Hypocrite –
Thank you for your compliment, and for your concern for my spiritual well-being.
There are different ways to influence the world for the good. Although you may not realize it, but this blog has generated much positive feedback, primarily via email.
In the future, it is more appropriate to send personal suggestions through email and not publicly.

IA GN –
Yes, we must do more to imbue our youth with love for Hashem.

Economist –
Absolutely true. However I do believe that whoever doesn’t need the internet, shouldn’t have it. Why take the risk? Also, it should be kept in a way that children can not access it unsupervised.

Sara with no H –
I hear your point. (Though in the future please refrain from using foul language).

rebeccabeth said...

Mister Independant :) Hi. I often read what you have to say- very interesting and on the mark! We got the internet origionaly for work purposes. At first it was a great experience- I felt empowered, connected, alive.. I used the net smartly- I really did. Always finding fascinating things, it was great for me.. but when not such good times came along... just like anyone else, I'll use it for chatting bla bla and other mindless BS.

BUT. As you say- it's about the root of the problem. It's a problem inside of us- those of us who tend to abuse the internet, would be finding other shtuyot with which to occupy ourselves- if it wasn't the net....!

Lakewood Venter said...

Amen to getting our heads out of the sand!!

The Anti-Semite said...

Well said, mentsch!

Forget the porn, smut & contact/relationships, what about wasting time. Still, I think instilling true Yiras Shomayim in an entire community is near impossible to achieve, at least in the 'bittere gules', all the more so with kids. So we should actually try to limit 'net access from kids as much as possible. But you're very right 'bout what you said.

Sholom said...

Guess who else has an opinion on this topic.
Don't click here!

shmaya gestetner said...

sholom-
why the hell would you put that link in the middle of our discussion. not cool, man. anger and resentment should not be spread from eather side of the court. if the internet could be used for anything good, its bringing people together not spreading them apart.

The_Hypocrite:-):-) said...

IFT--- RE: "Although you may not realize it, but this blog has generated much positive feedback"

IFT January 28, 2007 10:53:00 PM EST
________________________________

Who told you that your tachlis in life is to generate positive feedback? You may "generate more positive feedback" by "learning well, davening well, doing chesed well, teaching your kids well, acting mentchilch well. "
I am not saying that you don't do those things, however, I am saying that the time you spend blogging could be better spent elsewhere.

Kol Tuv
The Hypocrite

Independent Frum Thinker said...

Rebeccabeth –
Thank you for the compliment and for leaving your comment.
Understandably it can be distracting, and that’s why guidelines are necessary. But I’m glad you realize my point, that after all the guidelines we must fortify ourselves with true Yiras Shamaim to learn not to abuse the internet (or anything else, for that matter).

Lakewood Ventor –
Agreed.

The Anti-Semite –
Absolutely, we should limit access as much as possible. But we must also work hard on the root of the problem.

Sholom –
Thank you for visiting and reading.
However, I strongly disagree with your post on the internet. It is dangerous, and one should make guidelines. The point of my post was to emphasize that we should not delude ourselves into thinking that guidelines are sufficient. We must get back to basics too, namely old-fashioned Yiras Shamaim.

Shmaya –
Especially since his name is Sholom – peace.
By the way, where were the hugs and love? :)

The Hypocrite –
Once again thank you for concerning yourself about my Ruchnius.
I think we have a fundamental disagreement as to what the internet is. In your eyes it is pure evil. Plain and simple. Hence, you have difficulty understanding how one can harness it for good. I, on the other hand, view the internet strictly as a medium of communication, albeit a dangerous one. Hence, I fail to see anything wrong with trying to influence others, and myself, for the good via the internet. Would you also suggest to those who write articles, publish books, or deliver Shmuessin, for the good of Klal Yisroel, to desist from doing so? Presumably not. Well, this blog is for honest, sincere discussion on improving ourselves and our community.
In the future, personal issues should be discussed ONLY through email, as this detracts from the focus of the post and the comments.
Please respect my wishes. Thank you.

shmaya gestetner said...

ift,
hugs and love to all! i love the way you answer everyone in the same cool fashion. from die hard supporters, to grease-balls, to anti-semites, etc. your talent is deserving of a much higher position, its just too bad that you can't put the blog on a resume.
love more and again,
shmaya

Inspired said...

IFT,
You wrote:
The Anti-Semite –
Absolutely, we should limit access as much as possible. But we must also work hard on the root of the problem.

YES! We must work hard, leave the rest to Hashem, and not get flustered by the nay-sayers.


Shmaya,
I agree, excluding one point. I believe that inspiring people is the highest position you can achieve.

The_hypocrite said...

IFT: I think you missed my point. I realize that the internet is a tool that can be used either for good or evil or in many cases both. As people are complex and have both good inclinations and evil inclinations, their use of the internet can be both good, or / and/ bad. I'm not saying that everyone who uses the internet is bad. I am not saying that no one uses it to pay their bills on line or to read divrey Torah. I was focusing on the time wasting aspect. You will have to agree I am sure that the internet is very different from books or phones. To use a book one goes to the Seforim Store and buys a sefer. On the internet on the other hand one is one click away from porn, Chat rooms and other sites. While I agree that it is not the root of the problem, and the problem existed before the internet, the internet makes it easily available and anonymous. So any comparison to books or telephone use is silly. I don't advocate not using it, I advocate filtering. But I feel that this is all besides the point. Many bloggers seem to feel that they are doi ng G-ds work by blogging and probably expect that when they get up to Shomayim they will be welcomed with open arms. "Panu Derech Lehablogger Hatzadik Reb Blogger."

Say it aint so joe.

All I am saying is don't delude yourself.

As far as " Well, this blog is for honest, sincere discussion on improving ourselves and our community."

I am discussing improving ourselves and the community by pointing out that You may (may is the key word here as I admit that I have do direct conduit to Heaven and Hashem did speak to me in a dream, nor do I have "Daas Torah " ;)) be off base by considering your blogging worthwhile. It is possible that you might be better off watching The Super Bowl (have your wife cover your tahor eyes for the half time show and the commercials, ya never know, there may be another wardrobe malfunction!!!!)
Don't be surprised when achar Meyah Vesrim we all come up and get welcomed " Hey guys we have another Blogger who "is all Leshym shomayim" lets show him where to go...
lol

Just trying to put everything into perspective here.

Hypocrite

The _hypocrite said...

Spell check correction

Hypocrite

January 31, 2007 3:32:00 PM EST

Spell check on my post above.

"am discussing improving ourselves and the community by pointing out that You may (may is the key word here as I admit that I have do NOT HAVE a direct conduit to Heaven and Hashem did NOT speak to me in a dream, nor do I have "Daas Torah " ;)) be off base by considering your blogging worthwhile..

Sorry bout that guys.

shmaya gestetner said...

reb' hypocrite,
nobody is claiming to be perfect,using every moment for avodas hashem yisborach. some people have hobbies or other enjoyable activities that help them through the day. maybe your hobby is giving mussar to people you don't know, maybe it isn't. with all due respect,this discussion was not about blogging or bitul torah or watching the superbowl, so be patient for the right topic and you will have your chance to share your opinion on that matter.
with only true love for you and i.f.t.,
-shmaya

confused said...

Harav Hypocrite,

You are talking like the Tzodoikim who refused to eat a warm plate of cholent Lkoved Shabbas. But I do admit I don't understand the coherency to half what you wrote.

The_hypocrite said...

Confused.... Keshmo Kayn Hu. :-) :-)


Shmaya: That is exactly my point. Its a hobby so IFT and others shouldn't think they are G-ds' gift to humanity because he has a blog do discuss "issues" in the frum community. That's all I was sayinh.

Anonymous said...

A study reported on Vos iz Neias (without citing the original source. pure plagarisim in my view)
might strengthen the hypocrites views.
Here it is:

"Israel - A new study conducted by Professor Dafna Lemish who personally interviewed 532 youths, aged 9-18, who were each asked 190 questions pertaining to their internet habits, will have most parents not too happy with the results.
The children polled are a representative sampling of Israel's youth, more Jews than non-Jews and more families from a higher socio-economic standing than families from lower ones. The study did not include youths from the ultra-Orthodox Jewish public.

The study first found that 47 percent of the youths polled have a private internet connection in their bedrooms.
Sixty percent of those polled said they had viewed unclean material online. Their parents on the other hand had a slightly more naïve view, only 16 percent said they believed their children had accessed to unclean websites.
Sixty-two percent said their parents were clueless about their internet activities."

confused said...

hypocrite,
I'm not confused about the tzudoikim part, it seems like you have a problem with someone trying to improve "issues". People like you will go down in history like the tzudoikim. People like you are the "issue".

Anon 10:24 AM,
You obviously missed one sentence in your article: "The study did not include youths from the ultra-Orthodox Jewish public." IFT stands for Independent "Frum" Thinker. Also the_hypocrite has no views, he just has a problem with improving issues. He is the guy who keeps life simple, he says NO to everything.

anti - hypocrite said...

Hypocrite-
you are exactly your name. ift never said he was gods gift to humanity. you came along, made that assumtion, and attacked him.
you are the hypocrite. it is YOU who thinks you r gods gift to humanity. you think it is your place to come along and critisize without knowing people or their motives.
ift hasn't commented for a while. i wonder if nasty people like you made him upset.
ift, please come back. the rest of us enjoy your writings and apprecite ure sincerity!

:( kvetcher said...

anti-hypcrite,
You hit the nail on the head. I hope the nail moved...

But hypocrite is a "kvetcher" (hair splitter). AND he doesn't understand the word "assumption". This combination is said. His brain can not grasp the idea of "assuming", to him everything is finalized at first glance. Then keeps on kvetching no matter how ridiculous the argument.

hypocrite is ruining it for all other kvetchers.

Independent Frum Thinker said...

Shmaya –
Thank you for your kind words about my comments, and for your eloquent defense of me.

Inspired –
Absolutely, we must work hard, ignore the nay-sayers, and trust in Hashem.
Inspiring people is a tremendous level to reach. Yehi Chelki Imahem.

The hypocrite –
I hear what you are saying, but I don’t necessarily agree with everything that you wrote. However, I prefer to allow this dialogue to end. Other commenters apparently defended me quite well. All I will say is not to make assumptions about other people, their motives, and how they spend their time.

Confused –
Thank you for the kind words.

Anonymous Feb 1, 10:24 –
The internet is dangerous, as proven by the study that you quoted. My post was just pointing out that we can not just treat the symptoms but must also focus on the root of the problem.

Anti-hypocrite –
Thank you for your compliment. No, I did not get flustered by The Hypocrite’s comments. He raises some valid points, though I don’t exactly see eye to eye with him.

Kvetcher –
No, he isn’t ruining it for everyone else. I’m here and will get these conversations back on track.

To all of you who came to read and/or comment –
Have a wonderful, peaceful, and inspirational Shabbos!

Anonymous said...
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Frum Bocher said...
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