Google
 

Sunday, November 19, 2006

The Truth Behind the Skvere Rebbe's Visit to Lakewood

Many people have been talking about the purpose of the Skvere Rebbe's visit to Lakewood. After my independent research, these are the facts as I see them. I admit that it may sound somewhat anti-Chassidish, however that is not at all my intention. My intention is solely to report the facts as they seem to be.

Chassidim maintain control over most Frum communities. Kashrus, Eiruv, Mikvaos, etc. The fact is that Chassidim are generally a tight-knit group, and as such wield tremendous group power. Let's be honest, only Chassidim could create a Kiryas Yoel, a Squaretown, or a Kaiser Village.

A major exception to this was Lakewood. Originally, Lakewood was a sleepy little town with a small Modern Orthodox community. After Rav Aaron Kotler z”l established his Yeshiva there, the community grew due to the fact that many Talmidim of the Yeshiva chose to establish their residence in Lakewood after getting married. At that point the community was almost exclusively comprised of Litvishe families. As time went on, the community evolved into more than just a post-Yeshiva community, and many people with no connection at all to the Yeshiva started moving in. Also, more and more Chassidishe Bachurim chose to learn in Beis Medrash Govoha, resulting in more and more Chassidishe Yungeleit joining the community. A town that once had no Chassidishe Shul, now sports countless little Shtieblach spread throughout many neighborhoods.

No longer content to playing second fiddle to the Yeshiva community, various power brokers in the Chassidishe community have been itching for an opportunity to show their independence. It came in the form of the Chanukas Habayis of the new Skvere Kloiz in Lakewood. The Skvere Rebbe was invited to come, but not just him, busses upon busses of Chassidim arrived, with estimates as high as 1,500. For a simple Chanukas Habayis this was way overdone, causing much wonder to many Lakewooders. But to show the world the foothold Chassidim have in Lakewood, it was just the beginning. The Rebbe requested to have all the schools in town, thousands of children, come out to greet him. Many schools declined, but the audacity of the request made its point. Although many more suitable halls were available, Beis Medrash Govoha was asked to give up its dining room for the Rebbe’s Tish, something clearly designed to show “who’s in charge”. After BMG declined, the Tish was held at a local girl’s school, but entire blocks were closed off to maximize publicity. The Rebbe even requested to speak in the BMG Beis Medrash, but had to make do with speaking in various other Mesivtos instead.

Any objective observer, including any self-respecting Chossid, can see why so many people were seething at this audacious attempt to “take over”. Let's not kid ourselves, if all the above was carried out by a Litvishe group in Squaretown, we all know there would be riots in the streets, to say the least.

61 Comments:

Anonymous said...

To be fair, Chasidim would not have accomplished what they have in America without the Chutzpa they had. But I feel only good can come out of this.

From the days of the Satmar Rebbe doing everything for Hayzalas Nfoshos in Europe while Reb Ahron was printing a Shas, to the current day, Chasidim are concerened with Clall Yisroel, not just the few bochurim in Kletsk.

Independant Frum Thinker said...

Please read any book, yes ANY book, on the Va'ad Hatzalah in America, and you will see Rav Aaron z"l was one of the main forces behind it.

As for their Chutzpah, absolutely. Without it they could not have accomplished half of what they did.

Anonymous said...

the tish was never supposed to be in BMG just the people eating teir friday night seudah ,which they ended up eating in a big tent

Sarah G. said...

To quote from Kuntres Avodas haTefilah (Rav Meir Birnbaum) [translation mine, I don't have the English version handy - I didn't get his permission, but I am sure he would like this to be publicized.]

It's written in the Darchei Chayim (Os Mem Vov) that before this Brocha [of the Avodah - Retzeh in Shemoneh Esreh] a person must fix in his heart to love every Yid from whatever country or group he may be, because he's asking Hashem to be misratzeh with all of them.

And, see Kuntres Ahavas Yisrael of the Chofetz Chaim Perek Beis who wrote, here we daven for the building of the Bais haMikdash and we don't think about the main impediment to the building of the Bais haMikdash.

If the power of the bitter sin of Sinas Chinom destroyed the Bais haMikdash, even though they had Torah & Gemilus Chassadim, kol shekain and kol shekain (how much more so must it be true) that this sin has the power to prevent its being built in our day, if we don't strengthen ourselves with all our power to distance ourselves from this sin.

Independant Frum Thinker said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Independant Frum Thinker said...

Sarah g, I don't think too many people have anything personal against the people involved. Rather they don't appreciate the way it was carried out.

Thanks for stopping by

Anonymous said...

I think we should stop "ba-redding" Sqvare. Those of us who are not interested should stay by our Gemmorahs and keep learning.

It is very clear the reason why the rebbe brought over 1,000 chassidim was not to be shamed.There are many "taynos" on sqvare, why they needed to come,why they made their own zaminin, etc, etc,

But at the end of the day what benifit do we have here in Lakewood to keep on and on talking about.More would be accomplished by learning.

signed:someone who had no interest to go to the tish or any of the activities.

FrumWithQuestions said...

This is my first time visiting your blog. I think we share similar qualities in which we question things about the Frum lifestyle and how it relates to how things should really be done. A similar incident thing happened when the Skver Rebbe came to Queens. They took over to Chofetz Chaim Beis midrash during his stay. Now for many years since there has been a frum community in Queens it has been run by Chofetz Chaim as well as Dov Revel. I don't think that when he came to Queens he was trying to take over but he was trying to spread Chassidus. I think this was the case in Lakewood as well. In places that are lacking in Chassidus Rebbes wan't to spread their teachings their so they will be learned as well. This is based on the Baal Shem Tovs teaching that when his teachings are spread all across Moshiach will come.

Anonymous said...

to frum with questions
what does that mean "Now for many years since there has been a frum community in Queens..." the skevere rebbe had nothing to do with establishing a community in Queens. The community existed way way before the rebbe came to queens. the community existed before the rebbe became rebbe. The rebbes visit may have inspired the queens community but nothing changed

Limey2001 said...

wow thats a tremendous insight

megapixel said...

with all due respect, i think your consipiracy theory about chassidim taking over sounds a shtickel paranoid. they think they are doing us a favor.

Twistelton-Twistelton said...

If Rav Malkiel went to Squaretown, how much would they go out of the way for him. Would any Squares come?

Anonymous said...

From the days of the Satmar Rebbe doing everything for Hayzalas Nfoshos in Europe while Reb Ahron was printing a Shas
-----------------------------------
What chutzpah you have!! You don't know the first thing about Rav Ahron Kotler zt"l. He worked tirelessly to save European Jewry. Read about his meeting with Henry Morgenthau in Amos Bunim's book "A Fire in His Soul" and you will get a glimpse of his mesirus nefesh on behalf of his brethren.

Fotheringay-Phipps said...

According to the book "Ne'echaz Basevach", this is exactly the technique used by the ancestors of the Skver Rebbe to gain power and adherents in Europe 140 years ago. The approach used by the rebbes of Skver, Chernobel, Tolne and others in that area was to enter into a town accompanied by large numbers of followers, who would join forces with the (small number) of followers living in town, and then pressure/intimidate the people in town to give him a "ksav maggidus" which meant, in the terminology then in use, that he had veto power over all appointments including rov, shochet etc.

The historical evidence is in the form of dinei torah over people who tried to go resist the ksav maggidus, and of fights between various factions of chassidim as to whose territory an area lay within. (E.g. there's a letter from the shkver rebbe of that time to a town telling them that he was not ready to allow them to hire a certain shochet, and that per the terms of his maggidus they couldn't do it until he let.)

I'm not saying that the rebbe intends to do anything of the sort, of course. But it's interesting that the same general approach - making a big impression by bringing in hordes of loyal outsiders, is still in use by these groups. (A guy from LA told me that last year the rebbe brought 300 chassidim with him to LA).

yingerman said...

wow i'm always amazed that people just say stuff, with out any info to back them up

"If Rav Malkiel went to Squaretown, how much would they go out of the way for him. Would any Squares come?"

I've seen with my own eyes rav malkeil get great kovod in a chasidisher beis medrash he came to farher one of my boys classes
big fuss big crowd



If I remember my history correctly there were hundred of old school rabbi's who marched in protest in washington none or almost none were chasidish
so stop bad mouthing the non chasidim

Anonymous said...

thats because the chassidim were mostly in EUROPE in the nazi camps GENIUS.

Independant Frum Thinker said...

I see this triggered quite a lively discussion. :)

Mr. frumwithquestions, please keep in mind that I consider myself true to our Mesorah. What may sound like criticism is really a quest for self-improvement.

Mr. fotheringay-phipps, thanks for sharing that information with the source.

Anonymous said...

>>From the days of the Satmar Rebbe doing everything for Hayzalas Nfoshos in Europe while Reb Ahron was printing a Shas, to the current day, Chasidim are concerened with Clall Yisroel, not just the few bochurim in Kletsk.

This is an absurd and historically inaccurate comment. Only Chasidish azus and hatred of Hashem and Torah can cause one to talk like this. We can appreciate R' Yorl's contribution to Yiddishkeit, but no one did more for the Klal than R' Ahron. No one.

Dovid said...

The bottom line is that Chassidim are not needed in Lakewood. How much they are needed in general is another question. But to showcase himself like this is pretty petty and childish.

Incidentally, would he have even given a shiur or a drooooshe had he been allowed in BMG? Doesn't he know his place? He's not one of us.

Fotheringay-Phipps said...

I'm curious as to the basis of the info that the Rebbe wanted to give a drasha/shiur in BMG and was denied. Because when the Satmarer made a chanukas habayis for their cheder building R' Moshe Teitelbaum (then rebbe) gave a shiur in BMG's main BM.

This Skver Rebbe is actually pretty respected in the Litvisher world as a big pike'ach and ba'al etzah, and seems to be on friendly terms in general.

In general there is a tendency in the Litvisher world towards increasing acceptance of all sorts of rebbes and their super powers. To the point that the Yated - supposedly the arch-Litvisher publication - regularly publishes articles about these types of stuff. A while back I saw an article in "Zaidy's Maiselach" in which a misnagid of the Besht came to realize the error of his ways.

Along the same lines was the Novominsker's attack on "Hagaon", published in Yeshurun, in which he said essentially that the Gaon made a mistake (in opposing chasidim) and it is not lefi kvodo to publicize (let alone try to justify) it.

Dovid said...

The Novominsker was, of course, very wrong for what he wrote. There was allegedly an article written in response to the Novominsker's horrible mistake, but, out of respect to the Novominsker, it was not published. That, after all, is real respect, not the fake kind exhibited by the Novominsker Rebbe in this case. Lest I be minscontrued, I acknowledge the greatness of the Novominsker. But he is human. This was an error.

No one is denying that the Skverer Rebbe is special, either. But he comes from a different world. And, frankly, the Yeshiva world really does not need his kind. We are lechatchila. This is not to say that there is no value there. But we have our own ways, And we do not appreciate intrusions, especially the cynical ploys and grandiose displays assocated with them.

Anonymous said...

. . . Skver would not appreciate three thousand talmidei chachomim coming to their town, smugly suggesting with their every move that only theirs is the right path in avodas hashem. Let's face it, Chassidus has a lot of problems with it. Those who wish to stay away from it should have their wishes respected.

Twistelton-Twistelton said...

yingerman said...
wow i'm always amazed that people just say stuff, with out any info to back them up

"If Rav Malkiel went to Squaretown, how much would they go out of the way for him. Would any Squares come?"

I've seen with my own eyes rav malkeil get great kovod in a chasidisher beis medrash he came to farher one of my boys classes
big fuss big crowd

I think Yingerman is out of his mind if he thinks Rav Malkeil gets the same Kavod, or a fraction of the Kavod the Sqvera Rebbe gets in Lakewood. And just how much $$$$ would the LAkewood RY get if they tried to solicit in Squaretown. Probaly under $ 1,000. Yes the Square Rebbe DID ask to speak in BMG. Not a shiur but a shmooz, which the RY did not let. Source is a nephew of RMK

dovid said...

WHO ON EARTH wants to hear a chassidish schmooze (unless he's a chussid). What kind of heartless, disrespectful chutzpa does that man have?

Twistelton-Twistelton said...

Fotheringay-Phipps said...
"I'm curious as to the basis of the info that the Rebbe wanted to give a drasha/shiur in BMG and was denied. Because when the Satmarer made a chanukas habayis for their cheder building R' Moshe Teitelbaum (then rebbe) gave a shiur in BMG's main BM.

Source of rumor # 1 is a nephew of RMK. Seems the RY said 'fine, he can give a shiur, but not a shmooze'. That, and the refusal of the Yeshiva to allow Square to use the Dining room for eating (not for Tish) is the reason why the RY felt compelled to attend the Tish.

Forthingay Phipps wrote ” This Skver Rebbe is actually pretty respected in the Litvisher world as a big pike'ach and ba'al etzah, and seems to be on friendly terms in general.” As a clever man maybe, as a Gadol, or chasuve, not at all. Unrelated joke; guy tells the Belzer Rebbe he is a Sqvere Chossid. BR asked ‘ which one the doctor (Sqvere Rebbe from BP) or lawyer (one from Sqvere Town).

dovid said...

Why didn't he give a shiur? Once again, kudos to R' Malkeil for being such a baal derech eretz.

Twistelton-Twistelton said...

dovid said...
Why didn't he give a shiur? Once again, kudos to R' Malkeil for being such a baal derech eretz.

He CAN'T, becuase he didn't have enough time for one of his Dayanim to teach him one!!!!

Anonymous said...

I am astounded by the amount of sheer Litvishe arrogance on this blog. The fact is there would be no Kasrus in America if the Chasidim didnt set it up.
All the R Yeshivos are descended from Chasidish backgrounds and the vast majority of the bochurim and Yungerleit originally came from Chas families. Virtually all of Lita was wiped out in the war, or went off the derech in the America of the 20s and 30s, so who are you kidding.

MIDVAR SHEKER TIRHAK..

Anonymous said...

to MIDVAR SHEKER.....
what difference does it make who one comes from. if people have a Mehalach and its working why try to change it. The Skvere people have a totally different agenda. they need to be able to say that the Rebbe was "begged" to come here and there and that all the Roshei Yeshiva and Rabbonim came out to them. And to top it all off this would validate them to do whatever they want anywhere, even putting up a shul in M. Rottenbergs back yard and blaming HIM for getting upset.

Anonymous said...

Jerk wrote "I am astounded by the amount of sheer Litvishe arrogance on this blog. The fact is there would be no Kasrus in America if the Chasidim didnt set it up.
All the R Yeshivos are descended from Chasidish backgrounds and the vast majority of the bochurim and Yungerleit originally came from Chas families. Virtually all of Lita was wiped out in the war, or went off the derech in the America of the 20s and 30s, so who are you kidding.

MIDVAR SHEKER TIRHAK.. "

Look who is talking about arrogance. Until Chassidim came to America everyone ate Treif of course. To this day, virtually all chasidisher hasgocos rely on say the OU for various things. Such as oil or staple ingredients like bakeing powder etc. Of course the OU is 100 years old. And we all know what a hemisher hasgocha is. Mir blibte in der heim, and give a hasgocha. I am not sure which RY are descended from Chassidim, but if it really true that everyone is descended form Chassidim, why are they all dropping out?!

Dovid said...

One can almost laugh at how the anonomous one sonorously states "Midvar Sheker Tirchak" and writes a comment replete with lies.

Chassidish arrogance is common, litvish arrogance, however, is a term coined by Chassidim to denounce anyone who chas vesholom disagrees with them. Chassidim have done little for kashrus, on the contrary, one of the reasons they were originally put on cherem was because they were lax in hilchos shechita. We have many fine hashgochos that have nothing to do with chasidim.

Unfortunately, there were many korbonos in Lita. Because of them, the chassidim were able to come to America to get fat and steal. From the remainder of those in Lita, we were able to learn about yiddishkeit and Torah. Otherwise, r"l, everything would have been left in the hands of the Chassidim. There would have been no Torah, no talmidei chachomim--just a bunch of fat thieves dancing at tischin.

dovid said...

Anonomous: there is no point explaining your points to a chussid. There whole education is built on lies. They will ignore you and rant and rave wherever they can. Funnily enough, they are incapable of understanding why they are not wanted around . . .

David_on_the_Lake said...

As someone that spent alot of time in Skver..I have alot of respect for their unique lifestyle...

However I do have to say that they have a very peasent like view of the world. As a litvak.. I was there to be "saved". When they werent getting me to become a chussid then I was a failure..(until they found out I had money..lol)
I think many Rebbes have successfully brought their Chassidim into the 21st Century and have shed their small minded view of anyone not like them...

fotheringay-phipps said...

I find it hard to believe that the rebbe has never given a shiur over the years that he still remembers. (I remember when the Satmar Rebbe spoke in yeshiva, as above. The consensus of the oilem was that he spoke d'varim shel ma b'kach, but the chassisher oilem was very inspired from his visit and made a rekida in the dining room during supper.)

The Belzer story is interesting (& suspect) in that the Belzer and Skverer rebbes are brother-in-laws, both having married daughters of R' Moishele Hager, the Viznitzer Rebbe (of BB). A third brother-in-law married R' Aron Teitelbaum.

You put those 4 together and you get 4 of the biggest rebbes in the world in one family. You really have to hand it to R' Moishele for his handicapping abilities.

FTR, I'm pretty much a hard-core misnaged myself, but I do think that calling chasidim things like "a bunch of fat thieves dancing at tischin" is going a bit too far, to put it mildly.

I also think there is some truth to the notion that chassidic influence helped in inyanei kashrus.

Anonymous said...

There is very little truth to it. Their overally significance is mild in the Torah World. They should know their place. Their place is not in the Lakewood. Let them do their pedestrian shtick all they want; but leave the Torah world out of it. We dont save them, they should have the courtesy to exercise the same level of restraint and respect. R Malkiel went out of his way to be nice, everyone did. They would never do the same for our own. We don't want them.

Semgirl said...

"They would never do the same for our own. We don't want them"

Wow, I just love to see blogs and comments that are brimming over with Ahavas Yisroel.. Considering that 95% of world Jewry is totally assimilated, dont you think that such harsh vitriolic statements only creates a Chilul Hashem and delays the Geulah..

Independant Frum Thinker said...

Okay, everyone, CALM DOWN!!

Let's be honest with ourselves:
Chassidim have accomplished alot and comtinue to do so. Mainly because of their Achdus. They can present themselves as one group with one goal, and not just as a group of individuals.

In terms of the Lakewood visit, from an objective perspective it clearly gave the impression of trying to take over, or at the very least as trying to gain a foothold.

Let's not be in denial one way or the other.

But as semgirl suggested, let's not get shlepped to far into Machlokes.

Anonymous said...

Maybe you have a point. But the statements the anonomous chassidish fellow made were beyond the pale. Maybe chassidim made some contributions to klal yisroel (perhaps in the sense that they maintained frunkeit in America so that their grandchildren can learn in Litvish Yeshivos, for example), but its still a different way of life. And differences ought to be respected. The prostelyzing aspect of the visit was insulting. I will not emphasize the flaws of Chassidus for the sake of shalom, but for goodness sake, the least they can do is respect Jews who maintain the tradition of their forefathers in a manner that predates the Besht and his progeny. Did the Besht say EVERYONE has to be chassidish? Its wrong to be so discourteous toward others with a different view, especially if its completely in accord with daas torah and halacha.

Anonymous said...

What bothers me is why so many litvishe people went to his Tish etc.
Don't they have any self-respect? Can't they stand for their principles and Mesorah?

Twistelton-Twistelton said...

fotheringay-phipps said...
I find it hard to believe that the rebbe has never given a shiur over the years that he still remembers. (I remember when the Satmar Rebbe spoke in yeshiva, as above. The consensus of the oilem was that he spoke d'varim shel ma b'kach, but the chassisher oilem was very inspired from his visit and made a rekida in the dining room during supper.)

Frankly Forthingay, your barmey. The SR has NEVER given ANY shiur ANYWHERE. He became a rebbe at a young age, and never gave shiur anywhere. Unlike the Satmar Rebbe, who was a semi dayan (and stock market player) prior to ascending to the thrown. Also, the SR may well have had more fore warning

Independant Frum Thinker said...

From what I was told the Skvere Rebbe never requested to say a Shiur, rather a Shmooze.

Anonymous said...

people on this blog, litvishe and chassidishe- we have just delayed the geulah a good little while from all this ahavas chinam.

thank you all. now we can enjoy golus a little bit longer- and get to think and spout hatred to make sure we get a nice little punishment "upstairs!"

and this post and it's comments to answer the question you posed previously:

"Are Weblogs Really Undermining Da'as Torah?"

Well, are they?

Shame on "baredders". from both sides.

Dovid said...

Decrying the way with which chassidim insult the Torah World is not an affront to Daas Torah. I do not think anyone actually believes the Rebbe has Daas Torah. There was injustice; it was outrageous. People protested. And Chassidim started making things up. You can use strawman arguments and call facts "hatred." But there is no greater example of contempt than coming to another community and acting out with outrageously different minhagim and ways of thinking as though everyone else is wrong. If R' Malkiek would come to Squaretown with over one thousand avreichem on Pesach and they would all eat gebrochts, Squaretown would go nuts. Yet, they can come in, with different zmanim, and expect that they can show that they are the leaders of the Yeshiva!!! That's hatred. That's what is causing the golus. And until they respect others, it will continue.

megapixel said...

why cant everyone just get along and be nice?

Sure, its not our way. But we can still be nice and respect their differentness. They are not keeping things like zmanim etc. but they have sources for that from people greater than us.
So who are we to condemn them? If you dont believe in their ways, dont practice them, but dont call names.
there are unfortunately crooks among all of us, just look in the
Asbury Park Press about once a week, so the chasidim do not have a monopoly on that either.
my husband, true litvak, went to the tish. he was very inspired, said it was beautiful. I dont think it compromised his litvakness by saying that the tish was inspiring. HE is openminded. There is good everywhere. Why dont we look for the good in each other, rather than criticize. We all stand to gain from that. i challenge everyone who posted a neg. comment (about the other side) should now come back and post a positive one! (let's see how many do)

Anonymous said...

The people who allow gebrokts are greater than all of Squaretown combined. That does not mean that they would not be offended. R' Ahron kept M.A. zman for Krias Shma. They should be respectful. They definitely should not act as mercenaries attempting to fix us from being not chassidish.

I went to Squaretown a long time ago. I did not find it inspiring. I found the tisch experience completely devoid of Torah. But I have to admit that I have met Rebbes in the past who are no doubt special. That's my positive take on it. I still don't see how being CHASSIDISH (as opposed to a good Jew) helped them become so special. But that's another schmooze.

Anonymous said...

Besides, I would assume that many weblogs, such as this one, though they may have an independent twist, are not advocating anti-Da'as Torah view


does that include these comments ?

dovid said...

Decrying Chassidic excessiveness is not anti daas torah. On the contrary, many gedolei olam had similar concerns.

Independant Frum Thinker said...

Thanks everyone for weighing in.

I think this issue was exhausted, and it might be time to move on.
Why have so few people commented on my most recent post?

To the one who wrote that the comments displayed here are an example of anti-Da'as Torah, I will try to write a new post soon explaining why you're completely mistaken. Stay tuned.

shmaya gestetner said...

this is my first time posting on one of these blogs. i am very much bothered by everybodies being anonymus. whether you are chisidish or litvish, hiding your identity is cowardly. if you have an honest, torah backed, reasonable opinion, you should not be ashamed of it.
now to the point; i am not a skvere chosid at all, but i have been going there my whole life and have alot of family there. the skvere rebbe is an extremely holy, kind and sensitive person, who spends most of his life helping people from around the world. unfortunately, when any chassidus or litvishe yeshiva gets too big, the need for money to run their mosdos begin to take up most of their agendas. ultimately, they are forced to bring on a staff of people to run this corporate side of their mosod. now, the more money they need, the more power is given to these individuals who put the financial status of the mosad/chassidus as top priority.
anybody who really is familiar with skver knows that the main reason for a rebbe going out of town for shabbos is to bring in money. there is an inyan for tzaddikim to travel to different places to make birurim or simply to spread the teachings of the ba'al shem. similarly, there is an inyan for lakewood to set up kollelim all around the world to spread torah learning. however, i assure you, that neither skver or any other chassidus is trying to take over lakewood. besides, r'malkiel and the skvere rebbe have a very good relationship. i know people who have seen r'malkiel in skver more then once. when it boils down to well needed funds for yiddishe mosdos, everyone is on the same page. in conclusion, lakewood is not what it used to be and chassidus is not what it used to be, but the gedolim on either side are having much more respect for each other, and even working together on many projects, events, governement fraud, etc. etc. the only people still fighting are the misinformed closed-minded, bored and cowardly children in yeshiva or an anonymus blogs.

hugs and love,
shmaya gestetner

lakewooder said...

i dont believe in everything that has been said here. but two points if i may...
1. when people post nonsense without citing sources it lowers their credibility period.
2. (and most importantly)fotheringay-phipps brings up a good point (with sources). and the thing we must be ever vigilant about is the attempts of many (rather successfully) to rewrite history. that is often the most hienous crime of all. you deny the masses the opportunity to learn. read the torah. we are suposed to learn from history. otherwise it would all be just lashon hara. the L-rd intended for us to learn from others errors (and successes). dont steal from people by taking this most valuable resource.

Independent Frum Thinker said...

Shmaya Gestetner –
Thank you for visiting and commenting.
I truly appreciate your giving a completely new perspective on this issue.
As for my personal preference to remain anonymous; the unfortunate reality of today’s world is that if you express an opinion which others may not agree with, all to often you are “blacklisted”. It’s unfortunate, but true.

Lakewooder –
Quoting things without sources definitely lowers credibility, though sometimes a person can still make a great point without knowing the exact sources.
Historical revisionism is an unfortunate reality with so many aspects of our rich & beautiful history.

frummeyid said...

I am sorry to bring this up here but although he was blasted for reporting the results of his research, Ephraim Zuroff blows the lid off the mythology surrounding the Va'ad. The relaity is that the plots which get much of the attention were depserate attempts to save yidden but had verylow chances of success and, depsite claims to the contrary, failed because they faiuled, not because the Jewish Agency foiled them. More significantly, the Va'ad was NOT set up to save Jews per se. It was set up solely to save learners. To that end, Zuroff documented 100% that there were explicit instructions to save more learners and leave children and women behind. Also, that huge amounts of the money raise went towards sustaining the Yeshiva in Shanghai --- very nice, but bear in mind this was while the ovens were burning with the fuel of our grandparents and a group called Va'ad Hatzalah was paying people to learn in a safe place (shanghai)instead of telling them to work so the money can be spent saving average people.
Personally, I think that while Zuroff's documentation is impeccable, he is too harsh on the Va'ad --- they really felt that saving learners was the #1 priority and that is a hashkafic issue. But the entire yeshivish mythology that the va'ad's purpose was to save European Jewry is historical revisionism --- thevaad raised large amounts of money under the pretext that it would try to save everyone but then spent its money saving only the learners. It was only towards the end of the war that the vaad tried adapting a more broad focus, but that was too little, too late, as the opportunities for escape were over.

I know this blog was not focussed on the va'ad, but seeing that the vaad and rewriting history were both mentioned here got me thinking...

Independent Frum Thinker said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Independent Frum Thinker said...

Frummeyid -
Never to late to weigh in.
Honestly, I have not seen Zuroff's research so I don't know the details.
However, there is a Halacha that if there are limited funds to support or save people, Torah-learners take precedence.
It's a very painful decision, but if the circumstances only allow for limited amounts of people to be saved, they do come first.

Anonymous said...

the jewish observer ran an article about zuroff. he eventually apologized for his malicious inaccuracies.

Anonymous said...

I've had my laptop for approximately two years and all of a sudden it has started to shut down constantly. I downloaded freeware to catch viruses, etc., and it cleaned my laptop up, but the problem still persists. It's really starting to frustrate me!!!!!!! I don't know if this is an overheating problem or what I should do if it's that or an internal problem. Any advice? I really need this fixed as it keeps shutting down while I write my final papers for school! I graduate in two weeks and I really need to fix this NOW! Thanks in advance! [url=http://gordoarsnaui.com]santoramaa[/url]

Anonymous said...

LAKEWOOD IS SODOM THE BAIS MEDRESH WILL BURN BECUSE THEY DECLINED HAVING THE REBBES TISH THERE

Anonymous said...

Hey, I am checking this blog using the phone and this appears to be kind of odd. Thought you'd wish to know. This is a great write-up nevertheless, did not mess that up.

- David

Anonymous said...

I am now not positive where you are getting your information, but good topic.
I must spend a while learning much more or figuring out more.
Thanks for wonderful information I used to be on the lookout
for this information for my mission.

Also visit my webpage: roasted coffee beans

Anonymous said...

It's very trouble-free to find out any topic on web as compared to books, as I found this article at this website.

Review my page ... http://ce.haw-aw.de/wiki/index.php?title=Benutzer:CecilaY38

Anonymous said...

I am in fact delighted to glance at this weblog posts which carries lots
of helpful data, thanks for providing such statistics.


my web-site; Emmz.Com